Nord synths have released a binaural piano "patch"
- Thread starter Botch
- Start date
That is amazing! It sounds exactly like I am sitting at the center position of the player on the stool without moving my head! Not sure it would be useful for much more than to experience it as an experience - something special. In other words, if I were trying to mix this into a recording with drums, upright bass, and tenor sax, it may be difficult to blend.
Lone Stranger
Well-Known Member
I am not familiar with the Nords myself but I would assume it would have other piano sounds designed with recording or gigging in mind. Nord would intend that binaural piano sound strictly for personal playing through the speakers.
Correct, except that a binaural recording will sound best through headphones/earbuds, not speakers, since that's how the original sound was captured.
D
Deleted member 133
Guest
I am confused!
Are we on the same page? My assumption is that the binaural effect / binaural recording is produced entirely electronically within the Nord piano itself. It simply outputs a binaural L/R signal. This is not a case of it playing and then a binaural microphone "head" picking it up and recording it - "captured" as Botch says above. N'est-ce pas?
In any case I like how it sounds.
Jeff
Are we on the same page? My assumption is that the binaural effect / binaural recording is produced entirely electronically within the Nord piano itself. It simply outputs a binaural L/R signal. This is not a case of it playing and then a binaural microphone "head" picking it up and recording it - "captured" as Botch says above. N'est-ce pas?
In any case I like how it sounds.
Jeff
Lone Stranger
Well-Known Member
Binaural recording uses a special microphone system where a skull shaped stand is used and microphones are placed where the ear drums would go. When you listen to audio recordings with the binaural systems it gives a very realistic 3D audio effect. Lots of examples on YouTube. As Flint says, keep your head completely still otherwise the realism disappears. (When you move your head, the sound environment moves with it which is NOT realistic.
D
Deleted member 133
Guest
But I don't think that's what is happening here. The binaural "recording" is taking place entirely within the instrument which then simply outputs an already-to-use signal for recording. It would make no sense to play it (presumably through speakers) to then be picked up by a microphone head.
Different than say recording a jazz trio by placing the recording binaural head in the middle, or in front of, the musicians and their instruments.
In the case of the Nord piano, the "point of view" is chosen as being the player's head position.
A binaural recording of a non-electronic piano, like a Grand, would be different entirely. But not, if I'm right, with the Nord.
Jeff
I'm not quite following your confusion Jeff, but granted (since my workday (you remember those!) ended at 0800 this morning) I've sampled a few brewskis today.
The Nord Piano is a sample-playback instrument. A pianist's "head" is placed at the player's position, in front of a real grand piano, with a mic in each ear canal. The bottom E, or A, or C, key is struck, at different velocities, and recorded digitally via both mics. The left ear catches most of the sound, the right only a bit. Next, same thing is done up an octave and a half or so, say D2. Again, the left mic picks up most of the sound, the right a bit more, plus there's this odd reflection off the mannequin's nose, and some comb-filtering through its right eyebrow (this sounds silly but is important). Next, C3, right in the middle of the piano. Each ear gets an equal amount of sound from the string, but the open lid of the grand piano reflects more sound, especially the treble, to the right ear; again, subtle, but the human brain is a monster.
Okay, we're done, and the Nord is Programmed. The "patch" is programmed into the Nord's software. A player plugs in the phones, and hits the bottom note. A digital recording of what the left mic, in the mannequin, recorded is played back in the left phone, and the lighter sound recorded from the right mic is now played back in the right phone.
If you played these left/right recordings through speakers, it won't be quite the same as both ears can hear each speaker, although the left ear hears more of the left speaker, and vice-versa; this subtle crosstalk is perfectly recorded by each ear mic, and can be heard as long as each ear hears ONLY what each mic "heard".
So far I've only listened to the above sample via my laptop's speakers; tomorrow I'll find some headphones and listen again that way, THAT should be the "perfect sound".
Hope the above makes sense, as I said I'm slightly toasted at this point.
Now, let's think about Virtual Reality! As stated above in other posts, the binaural effect is strongest when you don't move your head. This is actually true with movies too; the secret to VR is that the picture "moves off to the side", if your head "moves off to the side", using the built-in gyros/accelerometers in the VR goggles (or your phone) to input your head's position. Binaural recording would be even more realistic if it could track your head position, and adjust the music location appropriately (mapping sounds directionally should actually be easier than mapping visuals, yet visuals came first (or do VR goggles adjust the sound location according to head position too? I don't know)).
The Nord Piano is a sample-playback instrument. A pianist's "head" is placed at the player's position, in front of a real grand piano, with a mic in each ear canal. The bottom E, or A, or C, key is struck, at different velocities, and recorded digitally via both mics. The left ear catches most of the sound, the right only a bit. Next, same thing is done up an octave and a half or so, say D2. Again, the left mic picks up most of the sound, the right a bit more, plus there's this odd reflection off the mannequin's nose, and some comb-filtering through its right eyebrow (this sounds silly but is important). Next, C3, right in the middle of the piano. Each ear gets an equal amount of sound from the string, but the open lid of the grand piano reflects more sound, especially the treble, to the right ear; again, subtle, but the human brain is a monster.
Okay, we're done, and the Nord is Programmed. The "patch" is programmed into the Nord's software. A player plugs in the phones, and hits the bottom note. A digital recording of what the left mic, in the mannequin, recorded is played back in the left phone, and the lighter sound recorded from the right mic is now played back in the right phone.
If you played these left/right recordings through speakers, it won't be quite the same as both ears can hear each speaker, although the left ear hears more of the left speaker, and vice-versa; this subtle crosstalk is perfectly recorded by each ear mic, and can be heard as long as each ear hears ONLY what each mic "heard".
So far I've only listened to the above sample via my laptop's speakers; tomorrow I'll find some headphones and listen again that way, THAT should be the "perfect sound".
Hope the above makes sense, as I said I'm slightly toasted at this point.
Now, let's think about Virtual Reality! As stated above in other posts, the binaural effect is strongest when you don't move your head. This is actually true with movies too; the secret to VR is that the picture "moves off to the side", if your head "moves off to the side", using the built-in gyros/accelerometers in the VR goggles (or your phone) to input your head's position. Binaural recording would be even more realistic if it could track your head position, and adjust the music location appropriately (mapping sounds directionally should actually be easier than mapping visuals, yet visuals came first (or do VR goggles adjust the sound location according to head position too? I don't know)).
Most synth sounds spread the notes out across the channels from left to right evenly. Middle C in dead center (equal in both channels) and the highest note is far right and lowest note is far left with all the rest evenly dispersed between. Some attempt to replicate concert halls and famous studio sounds, which are all about interesting or realistic playback over speakers.
This Nord sound is meant to give the listener, with headphones, the impression they are really sitting at the keyboard of a real piano. This is different and new because it involves two signals for each key being played - one for each ear. They then have to add all the delays, EQ, and such to recreate intra-ear crosstalk, and Bob's your uncle.
This Nord sound is meant to give the listener, with headphones, the impression they are really sitting at the keyboard of a real piano. This is different and new because it involves two signals for each key being played - one for each ear. They then have to add all the delays, EQ, and such to recreate intra-ear crosstalk, and Bob's your uncle.
Uh... not that new, except maybe the binaural recording/sampling part. My Technics electric piano (nearly 20 years old at this point, unfortunately they don't make them anymore) has a definite stereo effect with low notes on the left, high more on the right, just like sitting at a real piano. It's sampled from (I think) a Steinway. Fully weighted, piano-like keys. Plus, it does a pretty amazing job of modeling the tone of the note depending on how you strike it, not just volume but changing brightness, percussiveness, attack. I really can play it like a real piano and not feel like I'm playing a synth. I dread the time, hopefully far off, when this thing stops working, I'll be SOL because I can't fit a grand piano in my house - even if I could afford one.
My post was stating that all synths have stereo, but not attempting to be exactly recreating the soundfield via headphones in a truly Binaural way. This one doing it in this way is new.
My first post was to point out that it isn't very practical. For recording you would not want a binaural source unless the intended use is for a binaural recording. Most sampled pianos are intended to be used for performance (concert or living room) or recording traditional stereo music. Binaural is not appropriate for either of those.
So, on the one hand it is really cool they made a binaural patch. On the other hand it has very little real world value.
Even as a performer wearing headphones, the binaural aspect is limited by the fact the performer will likely be moving around a bit and greatly reducing the effect of the binaural signal.
My first post was to point out that it isn't very practical. For recording you would not want a binaural source unless the intended use is for a binaural recording. Most sampled pianos are intended to be used for performance (concert or living room) or recording traditional stereo music. Binaural is not appropriate for either of those.
So, on the one hand it is really cool they made a binaural patch. On the other hand it has very little real world value.
Even as a performer wearing headphones, the binaural aspect is limited by the fact the performer will likely be moving around a bit and greatly reducing the effect of the binaural signal.
By the way, I have owned more than three true source sampled pianos, one Roland, one Yamaha and one Kurzweil. All three sounded amazing and felt real. None of them did binaural. The Kurzweil was the most flexible in that it had settings for studio stereo versus performance and one could turn on or off the ambience (reverb and added resonance) on most of the settings.
Interesting, this discussion kinda got me thinking about what I might do if my current piano dies. Was looking at Yamaha's "silent piano" offerings - a hybrid acoustic grand piano where you can turn off the hammers and use it as digital only. Pretty wild!
This would be sort of a dream piano for me, it appeals both to my acoustic and techie sides, very very much:
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musi.../silentpianos/grand_pianos/c2x-sh/?mode=model
Anyway, my point here is that I noticed that this claims to have binaural sampling for the digital "piano engine." Cool. I may go to a local store to try one just for grins. Not that I could afford one, or fit the damn thing in my house... sigh.
This would be sort of a dream piano for me, it appeals both to my acoustic and techie sides, very very much:
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musi.../silentpianos/grand_pianos/c2x-sh/?mode=model
Anyway, my point here is that I noticed that this claims to have binaural sampling for the digital "piano engine." Cool. I may go to a local store to try one just for grins. Not that I could afford one, or fit the damn thing in my house... sigh.
malsackj
Well-Known Member
But with the advent of the bands using IEM on stage it would make sense to setup as biannual. But like you all have said when sent to the PA system it does not work well.
Working with a Hammond and Leslie the horns on the top are creating a doppler shift. So I use XY stereo mic technique to send this doppler shift to the L/R channels.
Some of the old rock recordings of the leslie do not have the stereo track for the doppler shift.
Working with a Hammond and Leslie the horns on the top are creating a doppler shift. So I use XY stereo mic technique to send this doppler shift to the L/R channels.
Some of the old rock recordings of the leslie do not have the stereo track for the doppler shift.