HCA-1000A
- Thread starter heeman
- Start date
bscene-buttred:
I could be wrong (and probably am) but when I bought my A23's, I was told they operate in Class A for the first two and a half watts. I thought that was pretty anemic and asked what its big brother offered and was told "double".heeman said:
Just now looking deeper into it, I can't find the info on the A23 but I did find it on the A21. It is 10W. So I guess the A23's are 5W.
From another thread:
In terms of how the speakers perform, two equally good amps sharing all characteristics except these two slew rate numbers will perform (sound) pretty much identically. Except with digital noise, all sound has a natural rise time, and if you were asked to generate more than 60V at a frequency higher than 1,000Hz, you'd go deaf.
However, when considering good design, components, manufacturing, and such, of an amp, those things are indicators that the designer and supply chain manager have paid close attention to detail.
In general, nearly every decent solid state amp on the market has a dynamic performance which is thousands of times better than even the most dynamic speaker. The weak link is the speaker, not the amp.
There are cases where an amp will have an impact on the performance of a speaker's dynamic response. SET amps or very complex speaker loads on tube amps, or a poorly designed amp can influence how a speaker behaves. However, some people LOVE the way the speaker and amp act like a joint-resonant pair to produce a certain sound. Much like the smoother, more organic sound some people claim to hear from LPs, an interesting match between a low power tube amp and a speaker can also be enjoyable.
heeman said:
Flint said:
heeman said:
In terms of how the speakers perform, two equally good amps sharing all characteristics except these two slew rate numbers will perform (sound) pretty much identically. Except with digital noise, all sound has a natural rise time, and if you were asked to generate more than 60V at a frequency higher than 1,000Hz, you'd go deaf.
However, when considering good design, components, manufacturing, and such, of an amp, those things are indicators that the designer and supply chain manager have paid close attention to detail.
In general, nearly every decent solid state amp on the market has a dynamic performance which is thousands of times better than even the most dynamic speaker. The weak link is the speaker, not the amp.
There are cases where an amp will have an impact on the performance of a speaker's dynamic response. SET amps or very complex speaker loads on tube amps, or a poorly designed amp can influence how a speaker behaves. However, some people LOVE the way the speaker and amp act like a joint-resonant pair to produce a certain sound. Much like the smoother, more organic sound some people claim to hear from LPs, an interesting match between a low power tube amp and a speaker can also be enjoyable.
All of that said, if you are listening to really demanding music (like a complex symphony) at levels which require your amp to push its limits, then the difference between a higher current amp and lower current amp can be discernable. This is especially true if the speakers present a complex load to the amp, such as extreme and sharp variances in the phase angle of the impedance and very low impedance points in the bass region where more current is generally required anyway.
D
Deleted member 133
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Time out.Flint said:
Heeman,
Have you, or will you ever, so listen?
Am pretty sure not.
Now back to our originally-scheduled program.
Jeff
About the class-A power range, with most music, the peaks are at least 20dB higher than the average levels. If an amp is rated for 125W, then 20dB less than peak output is merely 1.25W. So, with a class-A range of 10W, dynamic capacity above the class-A mode is about 11dB SPL. Most of the time, when things are being subtle and the details matter, the amp won't be using more than 10W.
D
Deleted member 133
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With the C1s?Flint said:
I put them in the ultra-low efficiency category and suspect that in order to appear subtle and to hear any level of detail, they will likely be using more than 10W most of the time. (And no I've not crunched any numbers to support this.)
Jeff
I am working backwards from the peak output, not the other way around.
If we were to measure the SPL in real-time we will find the overall average output will be much lower than the necessary peaks, and certainly what our SPL meters which inherently have to average the levels based on the speed of the meter refresh (which we need to have slowed and averaged or our eyes would not be able to follow the levels and we wouldn't know what to do with the information).
If we were to measure the SPL in real-time we will find the overall average output will be much lower than the necessary peaks, and certainly what our SPL meters which inherently have to average the levels based on the speed of the meter refresh (which we need to have slowed and averaged or our eyes would not be able to follow the levels and we wouldn't know what to do with the information).
Take, for example, the dynamic ranges of the songs whose histograms I have posted below, Carry On My Wayward Son (Kansas), Thick as a Brick (Jethro Tull), and Penguins (Lyle Lovett). Each has a different range from peak to average, but in general, the average levels are no more than 50% of the peak, or 48dB below the peak level of +96dB.
If you assume the average levels are 30dB below peak output (we can use 200W as the peak output), then the averages are demanding well below 0.2W of power. We need the huge amps for all the stuff above average, not for the average stuff.
Take all the Bluetooth speakers we are buying these days. They have tiny inefficient speakers and the good ones small 15W amps/ Put one of those in our HT and turn it up to just below clearly audible THD and it is still pretty clear and loud, right? That's with a tiny speaker and amp compared to our behemoth systems.
If you assume the average levels are 30dB below peak output (we can use 200W as the peak output), then the averages are demanding well below 0.2W of power. We need the huge amps for all the stuff above average, not for the average stuff.
Take all the Bluetooth speakers we are buying these days. They have tiny inefficient speakers and the good ones small 15W amps/ Put one of those in our HT and turn it up to just below clearly audible THD and it is still pretty clear and loud, right? That's with a tiny speaker and amp compared to our behemoth systems.
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Understood, however I was approaching it from a comparison with what I have experienced.
My real-world experience with a pair of Koss CM/1030s (rated efficiency of 96dB - 2pi Steradian Load, 1 meter on Axis, 1 watt input, Gaussian density pink-spectrum noise) is that they will be typically peaking between 1-2 watts (most of the time) and 5 watts (some of the time) while listening at a level that will properly reveal details within the recording etc. - in a very quiet room.
Swap in a pair of C1s instead (rated efficiency of 85dB - no additional details) and that same listening level translates to slightly more than 10-20 watts (most of the time) and slightly more than 50 watts (some of the time.)
(And yes, I'm using peak, not average, power levels.)
Which is really the only reason why I raised the question.
Am not doubting your calculations; just not translating them to supporting a statement that, for the C1s, the amp "won't be using more than 10W."
But then again, I guess I'm trying to point out that that many fairies cannot dance on the head of a pin since it means absolutely nothing in terms of the quality of sound (which will be great) that Heeman will be experiencing with his new amp with the C1s, as I don't believe that he (nor I) would notice anything out of sorts as it transitions to / from / and back again between class A and AB. (In other words I think I'm being more than a bit pedantic on this point, and will stop now.)
Jeff
My real-world experience with a pair of Koss CM/1030s (rated efficiency of 96dB - 2pi Steradian Load, 1 meter on Axis, 1 watt input, Gaussian density pink-spectrum noise) is that they will be typically peaking between 1-2 watts (most of the time) and 5 watts (some of the time) while listening at a level that will properly reveal details within the recording etc. - in a very quiet room.
Swap in a pair of C1s instead (rated efficiency of 85dB - no additional details) and that same listening level translates to slightly more than 10-20 watts (most of the time) and slightly more than 50 watts (some of the time.)
(And yes, I'm using peak, not average, power levels.)
Which is really the only reason why I raised the question.
Am not doubting your calculations; just not translating them to supporting a statement that, for the C1s, the amp "won't be using more than 10W."
But then again, I guess I'm trying to point out that that many fairies cannot dance on the head of a pin since it means absolutely nothing in terms of the quality of sound (which will be great) that Heeman will be experiencing with his new amp with the C1s, as I don't believe that he (nor I) would notice anything out of sorts as it transitions to / from / and back again between class A and AB. (In other words I think I'm being more than a bit pedantic on this point, and will stop now.)
Jeff